102 swap Finally tuned.
 

PREVIOUS numbers were at TSP - 414/372 with the same cam and heads, stock pump and injectors MAF tune.

So it's been a while. I had them fix a bunch of other stuff too. Mice ate through a harness on top of the tank, they found a HUGE rats nest. Had 4 codes that they diag'd, one was for the fuel tank pressure sensor or something. Also had a lazy O2 sensor (I supplied), and the fuel pump was running out of room. Also, had them fix my crushed Y-pipe that I beat the fuk out of a couple years ago. And it needed a new belt tensioner. -was throwing belts now.

So long story short, here's the rundown..... Sorry, no videos yet. I wasn't 100% satisfied with these guys that tuned it. THEY took the videos and now the owner has them, and I ASKED for an a/f graph, they didn't supply it and i TOLD him that I asked for it on MONDAY. -No excuse for that. They also didn't order my Racetronix255 pump and harness from the vendor I specified ($209) so they tried to charge me $250 for it and they ate the difference when I told them what was up.


Ok... ok... Enough of my yammering.....




Who was it again that said I would lose low end?? Who said the intake was too big??? Hmmmmm.....



Ported 243 heads
TR/PatG cam 224/228 .637.639 110
FAST 102 with some minor smoothing.
NW 102 TB
SD tune
42# LS1 injectors
Ractronics 255 pump with hotwire fix
FTP 98mm lid.
SLP headers
SLP SLP ORY
TSP Rumbler CB
ASP UDP



456/424rw. They stuck some stock mufflers on the tips because they said it was too loud.. :haha: Anyway.. They said that may have been a 5hp loss because they were some stock mustang mufflers that are pretty restrictive. I'll get some new numbers some time this summer.


I showed PatG the numbers. He was quite impressed! :D he made 460/440 with this cam, but on his ideal setup.

Not bad for stock-ish heads and shitty SLP LT's, but those are tuned length headers meant for low to mid range power. That's prolly why the TQ shoots way up early. he said he set it for a commanded AFR of 11.7, so I don't think it's above 12.
http://imageshack.us/m/685/7955/dyno2z.jpg



-=EDIT=-

I've got an issue with these dyno sheets. These are the EXACT SAME one as they showed me last time I was in there. Gonna go back tomorrow. I'm not going back there again, otherwise. I'm not impressed with their customer service. And the fact that they gave me an excuse when I asked for the a/f graph and said that "mike" has them on his computer when I called on MONDAY and asked for them to be in the dyno readouts.

They produced some good numbers for me, but they're EXPENSIVE and a pita to deal with. I wouldn't recommend them.

After everything u just said about them and the fact no a/f plus needed all that other stuff I'd probably check another dyno out first ;)

^ Yeah.. I'm gonna. I'm not happy with this place.. But anyone who's been there knows the guy is uber paranoid about leaning out. I'm gonna go back tomorrow and try to straighten out this dyno sheet thing and get my MAF back that they absconded.

The whole ordeal was just a headache, but then again I'm at the point in the game with this car is that not much is going to be cheap anymore...... And it sat all winter, 59k miles on the original fuel pump and a little over it's stock supposed limits. Never had the tank down before, so who knows. I saw the pics they took of the chewed harness and it was completely bare! I'm lucky I didn't have a fried PCM on my hands. I mean BARE COPPER... 0_o not good.

tq/hp lines dont even cross at 5252

id like to see a compare of your previous graph over what the car makes now. no knowing your A/F is a big No No. i honestly wouldnt beat on it till you know for SURE how it runs. good numbers. but its only numbers. to me they seem bloated buy about 25rwhp. trick flow heads and a bigger cam make the same power. just my 2 cents. id get a second opinion. some guys and can fudge there numbers to make You happy.

WOW good catch Joe. that right there means that the graph is inaccurate and screwed with.

It says uncorrected at the top just noticed also

^ Yeah.. Because I've got time to tinker with a dyno sheet to prove a point.............. But this was the graph I am having an issue with. This was the same one they showed me last week when I stopped in last week to check up on it. I've gotta go back tmrw anyway. Other than that I've been out workin at the cape all week so I get back to CT when I can. I may just stay out there for a couple weeks.


And this is all I have from my previous "tune" at Texas Speed. And PatG made 460/440 on his. Is it THAT inconceivable that I may be even REMOTELY close?!

http://www.fquick.com/images/vehicle...jpg?1228783632

Untill you get a correct dyno I wouldn't be to happy. Its uncorrected and hp/tq#s don't cross like they are spoused to and no afrs...seems like bloated #s cause they wanted your money.

:edit: and over a 50 hp and tq gain from an intake alone...i dunno.

^ I blame a LOT on TSP for not tuning it right to begin with. Not to mention that was at 3800ft altitude, this is now at sea level, with 1: bigger injectors 2: 25% UDP and 3: a correct tune. Not to mention a crushed y-pipe that was prolly holding back power and the restrictive intake ducting. I think there was just a LOT wrong with the car prior to this current tune.

theres this guy named Slowhawk that does magical things with our cars..why not go to him? lol

Mike don't get that going Bayer we don't think u dr'd it we think the shop did also tsp's tune although conservative i bet wasn't that bad they are a great shop. Look at pat's graph your curves should be idendicle just alittle lower due to different heads etc. I hope your numbers are correct but i think the shop screwed you. Cprrected is 15 to 20 hp less also which yours aren't but take it to the track and see what mph you got but i would be alittle worried about your tune with no idea if it is safe.

Knowing that, the 50 hp seem more feasible with everything getting worked out, but again, them not showing you the afr would be a red flag for me, personally, getting a dyno tune. The afr very well could be spot on and were all just butt hurt at how much power your car makes haha but the flip side is I would hate to see it go boom cause if it. I'm no expert by any means, just tossing :mytwocents: out there, so take with some salt!

^ I really appreciate those responses (84z and you freie)... I don't need to be badgered about this anymore than I already have been. I'm not looking for someone to side with me 100%, but a middle of the road opinion is what I'm looking for.

I wasn't really impressed with the TSP tune after I sat down and learned a little more about how it SHOULD have been. I made 336/346 with LT's, Catted Y, lid and P+P TB. So then I did the heads and cam and it only made 78hp and 26tq?? That seemed a little low, but the HP gain was kind of on par for the mods and higher altitude.

Like I said, I was expecting 440/400 out of this, so we'll see how this pans out..... Worse comes to worse, I'll find a local dyno here and just run it again with a corrected graph and af graph.

I'm just curious as to what Don would have charged for all this work. He prolly would have been cheaper.. I got this guy to knock the price down a little, but that took a lot. he said he was gonna work on it in his spare time to save me some money, but one guy said they didn't charge me for some of the labor that was involved.

That we will never know unless you asked him to do it in the first place. owell it is what it is I hope your numbers are close but all that matters is you enjoy it. Just seems like a fishy shop.

My opinion.

Car gets Dyno Tuned = Me get my results.

"Before and After" , AFR , Corrected #'s.

I CANT deal with the slightest bit of "shadyness" when it comes to MY car.


Thats why i deal with Don @ Slowhawk Performance.


Don gives you the numbers your car puts out and maximizes your cars potential. No "sugar coating" to get you your "expected" results. What It does , Is was it does.:beer:

Bayer i wasnt trying to badger ya, i apologize if thats how i came off. Just sounds like a headache. I feel for ya

sounds like this needs to be a testimonial on the site lol

Coming from the man with a 600+hp car. Should say something.

I know don is reputable, trust me, he's got enough leg humpers. I have my reasons for not going there... Was it a mistake NOT to?? Yeah, it was. I got screwed for the work and on the price. I now have this debt to my father hanging over my head and it is NOT cool with me. This car has now come between family as much as my father says it's no big deal, but I can't even discuss it with him. He's a very closed person and all he tells me is "Don't worry about it. At least you got it back." I'm not saying what this cost me. It's embarrassing that I, a knowledgeable gear-head, got bent over this bad.

This car is a sore subject now. It's no longer fun... Thinking of selling to recoup losses and get out of this game for a while. I'm in debt enough as it is and this just dug the hole deeper.. I HATE having to be at the mercy of the tuner for every damn thing I do to the car and no one is willing to help me learn, so I'm screwed either way. I've asked before and the only responses I got was "Don't waste your time.. take it to don." That was kind of an insult. Personally, if someone asks me how something works, I LOVE explaining this stuff and I'll answer any questions they have... But this tuning thing seems to be very secretive and no one want to help anyone. I was going to start an account on HP tuners, but now I wonder if i should even bother. Unless I just do research, get the WB02 and software and just start from scratch on a new project some time.

Well you have to remember that for the professional tuners it's their living so telling you how to do it yourself means lost income. You can do your own research on the forums but there is something to be said for leaving some things to the pros, and believe me I am all for DIY and saving money. But making a mistake in tuning can cause a lot of very expensive damage so you have to weigh that. And of course speed always costs money, and you car is at the level where it's a lot of money to go faster, like you said.

^ The pro's weren't born that way. I think I may be good at it, but I won't know till i start. And some people can actually find a mentor that is willing to help them get started. I've found a site with some introduction to tuning information. THAT is all I wanted. I just want a rough outline of the different factors of what goes on in there besides, VE, a/f and fuel tables. I lurk occasionally on HP, but get overwhelmed easily.

Just fyi first tune with don is avg priced at 450 or 550 i forget then retumes are much less so it's not that ba of being at his mercy and his tunes are still good i havn't retuned for my heads but my car still does 12.5 at wot wothout a glitch. I say pay dad back when u can an don't worry so much about shit. Enjoy the car maybe sell the rims and put stockers on to pay him back if u need to

J+M is very well disliked in the LS world. Mostly due to the overcharging and lack of tuning knowledge. I'll bet the car is not full VE tuned,that you requested, and they have the balls to give you uncorrected #'s which mean nothing except they could very well be 20+hp more than the corrected #'s and of course make them look great.Add that to the TSP STD #'s and the car just hasn't been measured correctly yet. Well, except when it dyno'd here with corrected #'s that are now comparable.

I would have charged you $250 for the pump too.The shops have to make a profit but I would of diagnosed the real problem first since these cars don't run out of fuel pump at 430rwhp or so.

Either way the car is done and hopefully running right. Now you can enjoy it.

Even trying to teach someone for a month wouldn't work. Tuners learn things everyday. I just fixed a tune on a 2010 Camaro.Base running ect was done in 10 minutes(other shop took 6 hr's and still stalled all the time) but took me another hour to track down 1 hiccup while very light throttle at 1400rpm only.Another thing learned for future tunes.

^ I just rather hear an un-biased opinion. Like your first response here. No offence at all, Don, but when people come off as cocky, it's a HUGE turnoff for me. But on the contrary, I don't want someone who is flakey or indecisive. I just want a confident impression of my tuner which was what I got initially at J&M. If someone is cocky, I am more apt to shop around a little more. And the whole thing would be a 6 hr round trip for me to go out there and back. Not to mention how many times I would have to do it in the process of the tune. It just sucked that this needed so much other work.

After my experience with them, no fukin way would I go back. But I HAVE to now to pick up my MAF that I forgot to grab when I was there last, but watch it "walk away" between now and next week. :mad:

I got the corrected numbers and it was 436/402, but the a/f graph is WAAAAAAAAAAY out of wack and this asshole gave me EVERY excuse in the book to why he can't add fuel down low. "Well, I can't add fuel or it will chug and not run right." Then tells me that my 42# injectors are still at 50-60% DC??! That don't make sense with the 255 pump either. I mean this was a dangerous lean spike which carried well over half my power band... he said "Well, everyone wants w perfect boxed af graph and everyone is gonna bitch so I just tell them to fuk off. I was watching the o2's when I did it. It's fine." Which doesn't make sense if he's so paranoid about it leaning out at 13.7, but he lets THIS fly!?!?!? Fukin HACK sofb I want to smash his fukin windows, but his insurance would cover that. They're parts catalog shopping hacks. :mad: I just wish there was some way to recoup some of my losses.


And as far as the wheels, I'd do a set of C5 ZO6's EASY, but those would prolly be about as much as mine were anyway. Mine were cheapo AR's @ $205/ea.



I'm not expecting to "know what I'm talking about" in a month time frame. I just want to get a grounding for the different aspects, so I can have a little bit of a knowledge base.

I'm gonna be stuck in CT for a while now, so I'll be around. Figure I may have you tinker with the car sometime late this year if all goes well. If not sooner, especially if my a/f graph is all fuked up like it is.

I don't want to post it because I don't want to hear that I was "wrong" with my tuner choice. Live and learn.. This was just a very expensive life lesson...... again..

And no, you weren't badgering me... I just caught a lot of flack over this intake purchase when, I think, it was all a huge misunderstanding to begin with. I'm a pretty level person most of the time... Yeah I have a tendency to get angry and worry a lot (I'm neurotic, so sue me... lol) But I'm a LOT calmer than I was 5-8 years ago. I was a real hot head back in my early 20's.

But I asked for some intake feedback, and I was researching it as I was posting the thread.(I know, I'm dragging up something in the past that is over and done with) but some said that "the 102 is too big, you'll lose low end." etc etc.. But when I would consult someone who has countless hours of R&D into these intakes about different flow numbers and intake flow theory, some here would come back and tell me the guy was full of it...... That didn't sit right with me. -So someone with only a handful of experience with the intake is telling me that someone with 8 years of R&D experience doesn't know what they're talking about? I will trust the 8 years of R&D experience, I'm sorry. Nothing personal to anyone, but that's just who I trust. And I go by numbers because it is concrete proof that there is something different between two parts. I did not start the thread with ulterior motives, nor did I start it on a bias. -FAST brand choice made, yes. Look up the thread and read through where I got to the point where I said "Well... I've exhausted every bit of research on these two intakes and I can't decide now." I chose the 102 because it was an all-around better designed intake.

I got the intake and I saw some solid gains.... Questionable hack tuning it? Yeah.. big time.. It's gonna cost me more money to have this shit fixed now not to mention if the rear end will hold up the rest of the year and god knows how I'm going to come up with money to fix that shit.



But it boils down to....... I'm a theory junkie as far as cars. I soak this shit up like a sponge.. I always have. Normally, if I hear it once, I'll remember it for a very long time.

My cockyness is pretty much from what I see. You see the current A/F from the tune and say WTF. I say the same thing when I open his tunes and see what is done. I personally talked to him 2 weeks ago. A customer had a rear 02 problem in his Challenger.Diablo told him to talk to the people at J+M. He called them from my shop. The customer asked for them to talk to me (a freind of his that understands more about cars) and they threw out so much BS it made me sick on how they could fix it which I knew was lies.

If you hung around me more you'd see I'm not cocky. I'm very straight forward and the posts reflect that. You would also see at the shop cars rolling in from other shops,some barely run and we have to fix them. That pisses me off that people spend there hard earned money on there car,get raped and the cars run like shit. After there ass hurts they have to go somewhere else to have it properly fixed.

Now, after you see the graphs and have doubt- would you really drive the car around and risk the chance of killing it?

On a side note- I have no interest in tuning or working on your car. This is just my opinion on your situation.

^ Alright.. no problem..

But does that make ANY sens that he said "Well, I was watching the O2's and it's fine." ??? That doesn't seem right. The af graph should be the deciding factor.

I'd def get it checked out at another dyno, it all seems a bit sketchy and the graph doesn't make sense. I'm also sure that if it is accurate you gained way more from fixing the car than the intake. As for us low end "disbelievers" 200HP at 3500RPM is kinda low for a heads/cam car IMO, but without a good comparison to put up against with so many issues with the car previously we will never know for sure. I am surprised by the torque numbers though, very healthy if they are true. Get it checked out, get it to the track and see what it really does

There dyno wideband could be wrong. Looks like it WAS tuned SD which means the factory 02's shouldn't even be used by the computer because the computers in these cars are too slow to correct the mixture fast enough.. You can read off them and guess the A/F.

My dyno's wideband is junk now so all the cars get tuned off my stand alone wideband.Meaning no cars get the A/F graph for now. I can save the logs that shows the A/F though.

Ahh.. gotcha.. SD is kind of a guessing game in a way then.. But I would imagine it would take an experienced hand to tun it. I'm gonna look some stuff up on it now.. Thanks for the feedback though.

Bayer,

I had my car at J&M a while back and some things they can actually fix with no problem, but in my experience with them…I felt like a “mark” or someone just to take advantage of. Some of these place have a 3 part scam. Part 1 = fix the problem and charge the customer. Part 2 = tell the customer it is fixed, but should be replaced. Part 3 = sell their old stuff (that is actually not bad) on EBay.

I agree with your previous statement of treating it as a learning experience. If you ever have your own shop (tuning, body, general repair) at least you know how NOT to treat customers.

^ Yeah.. I've been toying around with an idea of opening a "different" kind of shop with a buddy of mine. I'm eligible for Veteran's grants, but the insurance alone for this new idea would be a HUGE overhead expense. I think that's why you don't see too many of these around anyway.

Like I was taught my my old supervisor "i'm firm but fair." I will always remember that.. and I'm an honest person anyway.. Even tot he point where it may almost break up a friendship/relationship.

I don't think those types of bureaucrat issues should ever stop you. Just start small and build up from there. If you know it is the right thing to do, just figure out (maybe slowly) what steps you need to do it.

^ true.. and I've got a correction..
STANDARD Corrected numbers are 438/412. I'm wondering if the wacky a/f graph is normal for an sd tune.

i can show you my dyno graph. Open Loop/Speed Density. ive dynoed my car a hand full of times and each time the graph is FLAT! SD Tune should not cause a fluctuation in A/F Cuz well your Tuning for that! and with you graph out of wack i dont even think id limp the cdar around the streets. the easiest part of the tune from what i gathered is the wide open/dyno tuning. its the street/part throttle shit that can Really hurt a motor. and you may not even realize it till you start bellowing out blue smoke, i say get it checked and get it checked soon. Drive the car After you are SURE! it is Safe! Good Luck Man! i wish you wouldnt have taken Don out of context as Cocky. hes a down right asshole. But hes my big teddy bear wen the lights go out.....

^ cheap and easy first, I'm gonna pull a plug tomorrow and see how it looks. But these can be tricky because it's lean down low but 12.4 from 4000 up.

This intake was still a solid gain. I don't think I'll mess with the car till late this year now. Gotta pay some bills off and decide if I'm gonna keep my truck or not. -Construction job and all and I have had a hard on for an .:R32 or GTi since last year. Don't think it'll work to drive a somewhat low car onto a jobsite.

damn sorry for your headaches with J&M.
I heard they were the place to go for LS tunes?
I guess the only way to do it right is do it yourself.
Starting your own business isnt all fun and games.
specially in the car business.
my father owned a shop for 40+ that did custom work aswell as the everyday stuff.
alot of the street rods you see in NW connecticut he did quite a few of them.
In all my years i cant remember him not bitching about finances.

12.4 seems a bit lean for WOT at higher RPM's